视频 | 把握读懂中国的关键——专访世界贸易组织前总干事帕斯卡尔•拉米（中英双语）

当中国举国欢庆改革开放40周年之时，很多国际友人也在为中国四十年的伟大变革和了不起的成绩叫好和赞叹。但是，国际社会也不乏有声音质疑中国的发展道路和在国际社会的作用。12月16-18日，以“中国发展新动能，全球合作新机遇”为主题的第三届“读懂中国”国际会议在北京举行，40多位世界各国前政要和国际学术界、企业界领军人物与会，就中国坚定改革开放再出发的信心和决心，坚持新时代中国特色社会主义和构建人类命运共同体等话题展开深入研讨和交流。

这一会议为国际社会更好地了解中国、把握读懂中国的关键搭建了一个很好的平台。在本次论坛上，本刊记者专访了世界贸易组织(WTO)前总干事帕斯卡尔•拉米。

While China celebrates the 40th anniversary of its reform and opening-up, some of the international community applaud its decades-long great transformation and marvel at the incredible achievements it has made, but some still have misgivings about the country’s development path and its role in the international community.

On December 16, the 3rd Understanding China Conference sponsored by China Institute for Innovation and Development Strategy commenced. Participants at the conference included dozens of former heads of state and government, and leading figures in academic and business fields. Themed “China’s New Growth Drivers and New Opportunities for Global Cooperation,” the conference tried to parse the country’s new development concepts, guiding principles, and resolve to advance its reform and opening-up in the new era. At the same time, it also serves as a good platform for the international community to know more about China, and get the key to understanding China. An attendee of the conference, former director-general of the World Trade Organization (WTO) Pascal Lamy sat down with China Today on the sideline, and shared his understanding of China.

▲ 世界贸易组织前总干事帕斯卡尔•拉米接受本刊记者专访。喻捷 摄

《今日中国》：过去40年，中国社会经历了巨变，取得了举世瞩目的发展，您怎么看中国对世界发展的贡献?中国改革开放历程的哪些方面让您印象最深刻?

China Today: This year marks the 40th anniversary of China’s reform and opening-up. The world has witnessed China’s tremendous changes and incredible development. What do you think about China’s contribution to the world development? What has impressed you most about China’s reform and opening-up?

帕斯卡尔•拉米：我觉得中国的改革开放，从开始到现在一直都进展得非常好，尽管其中也有过起伏。但总体来说，不论是对中国还是世界，都是一个巨大的贡献。中国的改革开放是一个壮美的诗篇，当然我们也承认中国也还是有需要解决的问题。

中国改革开放40年最重要的成绩之一就是经济的飞速发展。中国是世界上唯一一个能成功地让如此大体量的经济快速发展的国家，这在人类现代史上也是绝无仅有的。同时中国还大幅消减了贫困，这一巨大成功让中国在国内外赢得了声誉。

Pascal Lamy: I think since Deng Xiaoping started this era of reform and opening-up, it has worked overall extremely well, both for China and for the world. Although as we know, there have been moments when China's reform and opening-up accelerated and moments when it slowed down. It's a very good story overall, although there are issues which now need to be addressed.

The major success of China during these 40 years, thanks to its reform and opening-up, is the growth performance. China is the only country on this planet that has succeeded in growing its economy so big so fast. There is no other precedent, and there is no other comparable success like it in modern history. So this is the big asset of China's reputation, both domestically, because it has formidably reduced poverty in the country and internationally because this is seen as a successful growth performance.

《今日中国》：您参加的会议是关于“读懂中国”，在您眼中，读懂中国的关键是什么?

China Today: The conference you’re attending is about understanding China. In your opinion what’s the key to understanding China?

帕斯卡尔•拉米：我觉得关键是要了解中国是如何成功发展经济，了解中国经济体制和政治体制的关系，以及更好地了解中华文明和中国人的价值观。中国人的思考方式肯定与欧洲人、非洲人或是美洲人不同，所以了解这一差异性是推进合作进行的关键一步。

Pascal Lamy: I think the key is to know more about the way China has succeeded in growing its economy, know more about the relationship between its economic system and its political system, and know more about the Chinese civilization and Chinese values. The way Chinese think is not the way Europeans or Africans or Americans think. So understanding the difference is a major step forward in improving cooperation.

《今日中国》：中国一直奉行和平的发展道路，然而西方世界总有一些人曲解中国的战略意图，一些人甚至认为修昔底德陷阱是不可避免的。这样的思路也让一些国家对中国采取遏制的政策，对于这些您怎么看?

China Today: China has been advocating and following a policy of peaceful development. However, some parts of the Western world always tend to misinterpret China’s strategic intention. Some people believe that the Thucydides’ trap is inevitable, which has consequently led to the introduction of the containment policy towards China. What’s your take about the issue?

帕斯卡尔•拉米：我觉得情况的确如你所说，有些国家把中国的发展视为威胁，这就是为什么特朗普政府对中国采取了从遏制到打压的策略。他们担心中国的发展会损害美国的利益，因此意欲阻挠中国的发展。我不认可这样的做法。近些年来，中国在国际事务中的作用和影响越来越大，但这并不能作为美国打压中国的理由。我觉得美国太过咄咄逼人。可是同时，西方世界也的确有些人在改变对中国的看法和策略。以前他们觉得中国的发展可能最终会让中国走向西方模式，但是，他们现在认识到以前的期待并没有发生。

Pascal Lamy: Well, I think you're right about the perception, notably in the U.S. They take China’s development as a threat, which is why Donald Trump changed the U.S. policy from containing China to pushing back China. They intend to reduce the growth of China, being afraid that China’s rise may harm the U.S. interests. I don't think that's the right thing to do because it will harden China. While recognizing that in recent times China has become more assertive, it does not justify the U.S. stand, which I believe is too aggressive. But there are others in the West who also have changed their minds; they previously thought that the growth of China would make it converge with the Western model but now realize it has not happened as they expected.

《今日中国》：中国目前在全球治理中正发挥越来越重要的作用，越来越多地贡献中国智慧，提出中国方案，比如提出共建人类命运共同体的概念、“一带一路”倡议等。您如何看待中国在全球治理中的作用?

China Today: China has played a more active role in global governance, evidenced by its proposal of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) and plans for some issues of global concern. What do you think about the BRI and China’s role in global governance?

帕斯卡尔•拉米：我觉得“一带一路”是一个非常好、非常有创意的倡议。它在国际社会广受欢迎，是因为很多国家把它看作一个很好的机会来开展基础设施方面的合作，而基础设施可以让所有人受益。目前来讲，在有些国家对这一倡议也有质疑的声音，他们认为这是中国一方主导的倡议。我觉得“一带一路”通过基础设施扩大了世界的互通互联，这一点是值得认可的，这把中国和世界紧密地联系在了一起。不过，我认为如果要进一步有效推进这一倡议，要让更多方面参与进来，并有发言权。

在全球治理方面，中国在环境保护方面做得很好，积极履行承诺和义务，勇于承担国际责任。我觉得国际社会也期待中国在其他方面发挥更大的作用。

Pascal Lamy: I think the BRI is a very good and innovative concept. It was warmly received because it was seen as a move to enable more cooperation in building infrastructure, which can be used by everybody. However, I think for the moment, there are some doubts rising about the initiative in some countries as they see it as a China-only-driven process. While I agree that the BRI makes sense in expanding connectivity via infrastructures that allow China to breathe together with the rest of the world, I believe that if we want the initiative to progress, it should be demonstrated that the initiative is a two-or-three-way project.

In terms of global governance, China is doing great on environment. I think the world expects China to do more in other areas like security, finance, and trade.

《今日中国》：中国加入WTO以来，国内的营商环境、对外资的市场准入以及知识产权保护方面都有了很大改善。您如何看中国这些方面的变化?如何看中国在维护全球多边贸易体制方面的作用?

China Today: Since China’s accession to the WTO, China’s business environment has improved remarkably with more market access available for foreign companies and its intellectual property right protection system has developed greatly. What do you think about China’s changes and China’s role in safeguarding the world multilateral trading system?

帕斯卡尔•拉米：我觉得中国履行了当时加入WTO的承诺。我常常说，有些人认为中国没有履行承诺，并且没有按规则办事儿是不对的，不符合事实。然而，1994年后贸易规则一直没有变，可是世界贸易整体情况却发生了变化。中国已经成为一个更具影响力、体量更大的贸易国。所有这些新情况都要求贸易规则相应做出变化，以让市场更公平。

Pascal Lamy: I think China has fulfilled the commitments it took when it joined the WTO a long time ago. And I've always said those who believe that China cheats with the rules are wrong. However, even though the rules of the game have not changed since 1994, the game has changed. China has become a much bigger player and this changes the game. Hence there is a need to improve the rules of the game, such as disciplines on subsidies in the WTO in order to relevel the playing field.

责任编辑：柴晶晶